Curse

Ulivious The Reaper · Sep 17, 2006, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Bleh, okay, my monks fine, but my warrior, i looked closely at his face :'( bad idea

Kedlai Everwinter · Sep 17, 2006, 03:15 AM // 03:15

What the frell? I edited my last post, but the edit doesn't show up unless I'm in "reply" mode x_o

Anyway, this is the line I'm trying to add :s

EDIT: Actually, I just loaded up GW and had another look at Ked, her mouth seems to have been closed a bit more (It's still slightly open, but not the :B look previously). I guess it's just time for me to get used to the new face!

AJM · Sep 17, 2006, 03:48 AM // 03:48

GW may have been out for 6 months before I started playing, but 9 months is still a long time to deal with that bald spot, and I share Lynxius' feelings entirely. I think a problem as old as post-beta GW should have fairly high priority on the list of facial/hair things to fix.

As for the closed mouths, it would make female chars looks less like... erm... why can't I say RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs?

Well it starts with 'wh'. I think that's a good thing, this isn't Lineage, like I said... there's a difference between sexy and slutty. I personally find slutty girls unattractive, and it's quite immature to make female chars look more the latter.

Gaile Gray · Sep 17, 2006, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kedlai Everwinter

Seconded, close mouth please! Honestly though, Gaile, is it -really- that much of a big deal to close mouths slightly, to move them back closer to what they used to be like? I know that it's not possible to make them exactly as they used to be. In other words: is it -impossible- to close the mouths again?

In a word, yes. If the mouths are closed, they will literally "fuse" and will not move during animation. (And as mentioned, offering a "no animation mode" is not an option.

) So while it might be a surprise to read this, yes, it is -impossible- to close the mouths again. (Oh and I'm glad that things are looking better for your character. That's nice to hear.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thallandor

Your honesty is appreciated yet how this will affect sales only time will tell.

My honest guess is not at all. I care a lot about my chars, and I care a lot about the game. Because I care about the game, I won't let disappointment in a face change (skill change, armour change, attribute change, music change, whatever change

) dampen my love for the game as a whole. All are going to make their own choices, of course, and they absolutely choose what is best for them! But I think those who are most upset are also those who are most engaged, and, like me, they'll be happily involved in Nightfall. (BTW, that is not a dismissal of the problem, not at all. Just a random analysis about which, as you say, only time will tell.

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulivious The Reaper

Bleh, okay, my monks fine, but my warrior, i looked closely at his face :'( bad idea

Can you tell me which is old and which is new? And when the new shot was taken? Remember there was an update today, and we must be sure that it was taken after that update. Thanks.

Bethany · Sep 17, 2006, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Well, perhaps I missed it altogether, but none of my characters seem to have changed much. One of my warriors have teeth a bit more visible but overall, no Mr. Ed-type transformation.

Ulivious The Reaper · Sep 17, 2006, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

*snip*

Can you tell me which is old and which is new? And when the new shot was taken? Remember there was an update today, and we must be sure that it was taken after that update. Thanks.

so sorry, but the one without the helmet is the today one, and the one with helmet is from a few months ago, please fix it

Lady Lozza · Sep 17, 2006, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skids

It seems to me that I detect a change of tone as Gailes posts progress through this thread. Whilst I can sympathise that it is frustrating to be "faced" with so many complaints when you are trying to implement a beneficial change to the game, its worth realising that some may only have just noticed changes, and a lot of us are feeling even more annoyed by the people posting to say "stp complaining - the faces look ok".

@ Gaile: I do not see why the lighting cannot be changed back. Please could you explain why this cannot be done, if this is the main reason for the facial changes?

You say that the lighting is changed to correct an eror that has been around for a while, but lets be honest about this; none of us players knew the lighting was wrong did we? Its therefore not so much an error as a change for the sake of it.

Scenario: I buy a nice car with what the dealer says is a Sunburnt Red paint finish. Im perfectly happy with it and drive around for a while. then the dealer contacts me and says I have to return it because the colour of the car is in fact Suntanned Red. They give me a new car that is Sunburnt Red but I like the original car better because I got used to it.

No Skids, if what I'm reading is correct it is not the same, in fact to help some people out who don't seem to be getting it changing the lighting back would be a VERY complicated procedure. Why? The faces are NO LONGER composed of the same elements they were before.

I'll make it simple. Before our character faces were basically a texture painted on to a single surface, the surface may have been composed of various different shapes, but in terms of texture mapping it was ONE surface.
This means the light interacted with the single surface, creating a bug that couldn't have been fixed except with a very complicated light-mapping procedure, thus the lighting bug was never fixed.

Now, to animate the faces for speech, they have to compose the faces of many different shapes allowing the shapes to move and thus appear realistic. This splitting of a single surface into many shapes does two noticeable things:
1) Changes the way light interacts with the entire face, because the lighting is calculated per shape.
2) (and kind of related to one) it increases the resolution of the face itself as effectively the same amount of detail goes into each of the smaller shapes, as went into the original face.
This effectively allows and automatic fix to the original problem that was in the faces to begin with. It also means that to change the lighting back to the way it was would mean creating a very complicated light-mapping procedure incorporating MANY polygons, it's not just one texture spread over a single surfaceanymore!

So please, when you complain, oh why can't it be changed back, think about how complicated it would be for them to develop an individual mapping procedure for EACH AND EVERY face currently in the game. Rolling back is simply not possible if you want facial animations.

AJM · Sep 17, 2006, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

So please, when you complain, oh why can't it be changed back, think about how complicated it would be for them to develop an individual mapping procedure for EACH AND EVERY face currently in the game. Rolling back is simply not possible if you want facial animations.

I don't want the lighting changed back, that's just not feasible. What I do want is for it to be realistic, meaning there isn't a permanent shadow on my mesmer's face, unaffected by light.

Lady Lozza · Sep 17, 2006, 04:35 AM // 04:35

AJM I am well aware that there are more than a few complaints of substance in this thread. For a while there my mes had a gap between her neck and her head. However there are also a large number of people who are basically saying, "I don't like it because it's not quite the same as it was before, change it back", and it was to these people that my post was directed.

Blackhawk · Sep 17, 2006, 04:58 AM // 04:58

@The Art Team - Any chance of seeing The Naked Mans new face at all to see if thats been improved or did he keep his original good looks?

/sarcasm

Seriously though you need to look at some of the "teeth" as I'm not joking when I say since my Necors mouth was opened slightly it looks like she got a revolving door in there.

Other characters are fine.

Blackhawk · Sep 17, 2006, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Excuse the quality as I've had to zoom in a bit and I dont need to spend all day making them look nice to show this.

Pic taken straight after 1st update to see if the face was ruined and no teeth visible.

Here's an "After" Pic taken since the latest update with her tooth in the middle.

And here's another taken straight after (have to look closely but you can see the difference) showing the tooth has moved onto the side of her mouth.

Quite noticeable in game as well, so perhaps needs to be looked at again, as if it's noticeable on the login screen, imagine what it will look like during a cutscene and the characters mouth's moving and the teeth are dancing about all over the place.

Like I said, no complaints on the face but would like her teeth to be "stationary" please

.

Sable Phoenix · Sep 17, 2006, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

In a word, yes. If the mouths are closed, they will literally "fuse" and will not move during animation. (And as mentioned, offering a "no animation mode" is not an option.

) So while it might be a surprise to read this, yes, it is -impossible- to close the mouths again.

Sorry, Gaile, but as a 3D artist myself this makes no sense whatsoever. Can you explain how, exactly, this is impossible? Surely the artists know how to assign vertex weights to the proper bones in order to avoid such a thing. It may take some careful selecting of those vertices but it's really not that hard to do, unless your game engine is just completely unlike any other I've ever seen, heard of, or worked on. In any decent 3D program you are able to have geometry closed, touching, even interpenetrating if you so desire and still animate however you like. I really don't see how it's that big a deal to move a few verts on the mouth and close them; it's not going to destroy the rigging or weight painting to do so.

Now, for the point of my post... my Elementalist's face is still dented, running from under each eye to the corners of the mouth.

lyra_song · Sep 17, 2006, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sable Phoenix

Sorry, Gaile, but as a 3D artist myself this makes no sense whatsoever. Can you explain how this is even possible? Surely the artists know how to assign vertex weights to the proper bones in order to avoid such a thing. It may take some careful selecting of those vertices but it's really not that hard to do, unless your game engine is just completely unlike any other I've ever seen, heard of, or worked on. In any decent 3D program you are able to have geometry closed, touching, even interpenetrating if you so desire and still animate however you like. I really don't see how it's that big a deal to move a few verts on the mouth and close them; it's not going to destroy the rigging or weight painting to do so.

Perhaps the "idle" mouth animation is slightly open?

So if they closed the mouth, then it would skew the rest of the animations?

iruno.

ManMadeGod · Sep 17, 2006, 07:12 AM // 07:12

I have 5 PvE characters so far, actually I care about my female necro most.

Before

After

The "after" one is the 2nd update(Sep 15) version.
Her mouth is still much wider than the original one.

In my opinion (at least),
The "before" one looks cool, unfeeling. => This is what I want!
The recent one looks grining with wide mouth.

Oh, please, Gaile, may I ask do we still have a chance to be fixed? For those who still look very different.
Thank you very much.

Queenie · Sep 17, 2006, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Gaile, when will the panda eye's on the elementalists be fixed? Some of the other diffrences on the othes were fixed but why has the panda eyes on the elems been neglected? :|

ManMadeGod · Sep 17, 2006, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thallandor

Though personally i did not suffer too badly from the face updates, and would be buying Nightfall purely from what i have read from PC gamer, But i am not too sure about those whose characters has now been suddenly and abruptly distorted after playing them for so long about their inclinations for the next chapter since players have been known to leave games at the wimps of lesser things.

For me, I WAS very excited about the incoming NightFall.
But if you want me to keep my necro wearing the current face, I have no any motive to play any more.
And I would probably say goodbye to all my 8 characters, especially my necro (with 4 sets of 15k, 5 millions+ XP and 500 fame...
not much, but that's how I walked through the game with this char and finished all quests in game).

Feminist Terrorist · Sep 17, 2006, 08:24 AM // 08:24

I didn't want to do this, but I feel that I must. I worry that the artists might think their work is done, and it is far from finished. Many many faces still need to be worked on due to myriad issues.
Duck lips/milk moustache cannot be allowed to continue.

In Kaineng Center, facing away from the light:

In Kaineng Center, facing toward the light:

Outside Kaineng Center, facing almost completely away from the light:
As you can see, the last pic is the most normal, but now that I've noticed it, I can never unnotice it, and I certainly cannot play while always looking for a dark corner to hide my disgraced ele's face in. I have no complaint about the eyes, just the mouth. In fact, I wish her mouth were not so open. It's rather distracting, but I can live with it.

As for the upcoming mouth movements/lip synching, I can honestly say I have not seen anyone asking for that, and considering the amount of time I spend here, I would think I would have seen such an outcry. Auction houses/trade improvements, face changes/hair stylist, and storage upgrades, yes. Mouth movements, no. I, for one, very strongly do not want mouth movements if it will cause this amount of upset and disturbance. I don't think it's worth it, and the fact that my characters do not have any expressions never really bothered me.

I do consider myself very lucky that all my other characters have escaped any disfigurement.

ManMadeGod, the mouth on your necro is awful. It might be partially the lighting, but it still looks terrible. I truly hope it is fixed.

Kedlai Everwinter · Sep 17, 2006, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sable Phoenix

Sorry, Gaile, but as a 3D artist myself this makes no sense whatsoever. Can you explain how, exactly, this is impossible? Surely the artists know how to assign vertex weights to the proper bones in order to avoid such a thing. It may take some careful selecting of those vertices but it's really not that hard to do, unless your game engine is just completely unlike any other I've ever seen, heard of, or worked on. In any decent 3D program you are able to have geometry closed, touching, even interpenetrating if you so desire and still animate however you like. I really don't see how it's that big a deal to move a few verts on the mouth and close them; it's not going to destroy the rigging or weight painting to do so.

He has a point. But I'm not going to press the issue, I trust the art team will do what they possibly can, and to be honest, I'd prefer they fixed all the eye shadowing issues on various other characters that -need- it, as well as the "dents", "mascara", etc.

As a previous poster once said, better you than me

Lady Lozza · Sep 17, 2006, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Actually lip synching has been on the cards for sometime. Every now and then a suggestion does crop up on this site and many others, and it is quickly forgotten because honestly I don't think that a lot of players who post on these boards care.

As for the general gaming population, who knows. Guru is by no means a balanced, or statistically significant population.

Nonetheless, 90% of the interviews I have read over the last year and a half or so have all asked this question. So either 1) lots of people do want it, or 2) game mag journos have simply been pushing their view of what the game should be like.

Cherrie · Sep 17, 2006, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManMadeGod

For me, I WAS very excited about the incoming NightFall.
But if you want me to keep my necro wearing the current face, I have no any motive to play any more.
And I would probably say goodbye to all my 8 characters, especially my necro (with 4 sets of 15k, 5 millions+ XP and 500 fame...
not much, but that's how I walked through the game with this char and finished all quests in game).

Thats a bit drastic but... I completly understand your possition becouse I feel close to that myself. I just played one character all along - my mesmer (500 out of 600h on my account), getting both protectors and a bunch of other titles for her, completing her skills etc etc. Now she gets "rotten teeth" and I can't stand looking at her anymore, and remaking her is no option becouse I don't feel like spending annother 500h on this. I don't care if her mouth is open a bit more (tho i'd prefer it to be a bit more closed), that her eyes got changed a bit... But her teeth... thats not a minor adjustment I should agree to deal with Gail, thats changing a pretty face into a disgusting one. And the new look is not a case of bad angle/lighting, she looks like she neglected her hygiene ALWAYS. It's simply a case of badly chosen textures, and I really don't see how this is hard to adjust!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feminist Terrorist

I didn't want to do this, but I feel that I must. I worry that the artists might think their work is done, and it is far from finished. Many many faces still need to be worked on due to myriad issues.

Here's how she used to look before the update and just after the first update (again):

and despite the recent updates that got some other faces slightly fixed, she still looks like this:

...so no, I'm not paranoid, my favourite character has a face that makes ppl puke and belive me, it's not a pleasure to play with something like that.